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Final Gatsby Forum
Throughout the novel, Fitzgerald has made used many symbols, allusions, and thematic devices to create a novel rich with deep meaning. In this forum, you will need to address which of these is the most powerful and why. I expect you to not only suggest or defend the correct answer, but refute the incorrect answers and provide support for both.
The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Cohen, Stephanie at 3/7/2008

The valley of ashes represents the most important thematic element and the purpose of the novel.  It shows the superficiality and selfishness of the society.  The wealthy surround themselves with lavish belongings, while the poor live "where ashes take the forms of houses and rising smoke" (27).  This polluted area takes the characters' liveliness away as men move "dimly and [crumble] through the powdery air" (27).  It is ironic that Nick meets Myrtle here for the first time, as she searches for a way to escape from this dim world.  She spends most of her time with Tom pretending to be something she's not and hopes to indulge in a rich life.  The valley of ashes represents the reality of society and the escape from the characters' superficial lives.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Bell, Jack at 3/8/2008
While I don't believe that the valley of ashes is the most important symbol in the book, it is notable. It represents a rift between poor and rich, sad truth and fake happiness. It's interesting that Fitzgerald wouldn't characterize either of these two societies as content with life.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Duncan, Brooke at 3/8/2008

I agree with Jack that the valley of ashes isn't the most important symbol. It is, nonetheless, an important symbol. I think the valley is what Gatsby is left from his past that he can’t get away from. And I thought that the point Jack brought up is a good point in that Fitzgerald wouldn't identify the two societies as content with life.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Hackler, Leslie at 3/10/2008
(absent, excused) I also think that the valley of ashes is important, but maybe not the most important. Although it could also represent the corruption of society itself. It is also ironic that many of the events that turn out badly in the novel happen in the valley of ashes (Myrtle's death, and the affair).
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Winograd, Joe at 3/8/2008
This idea of superficiality is very important in the novel. The Valley of Ashes represents the idea of trying to deny the bleak part of life. Mainly, it represents how Gatsby is denying how his lavish life is simply a cover up plan to impress Daisy. At the same time, it could represent the dark side of Gatsby's life ( his criminal activities that helped him accomplish his dream). In the novel, Fitzgerald mentions how the ashes and smoke covers everything. This shows how there is no way to completely erase or deny the past, and that the past can come back and haunt you.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Demchenko, Vasiliy at 3/8/2008
While I do agree with all of you on the importance of the valley of ashes (and Joe's point if very true), I believe the valley of ashes is just part of the overall notions of Gatsby's dream.  We feel as if he has everything and is happy but only towards the middle of the book do we actually see the true side of Gatsby.  None of his dreams were fully reached.  I do indeed believe that the valley of ashes represents Gatsbys past that he can never escape from and his newly found riches are just the fake part of his life.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Clark, Julie at 3/8/2008

I do not understand how the valley of ashes represents the superficiality of society.  The valley of ashes seems more like the brokenness of society.  It may represent reality, but this does not seem to tie to Gatsby’s story/life enough to be the main focus of the novel.  His life had already been full of reality.  I agree with Vasiliy:  it is part of “the overall notions of Gatsby’s dream…. he can never escape from [his past].”  The ashes is what he tried to escape and aviod throughout his life. 

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: quinn, kristen at 3/9/2008

The valley of ashes does not so much represent superficiality itself but through its juxtaposition with Nicks world. I kind of agree, Julie, that is could be the brokenness of society but i interpret its purpose to be more for contrast. The roaring 20s are represented by times of unprecidented wealth living next to devasting poor. It is to show this tension in society, that Fitzgerald includes the valley of ashes.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Stribos, Michael at 3/9/2008
It's juxtaposition with the real world includes Doctor TJ Ekclebergs eyes watching over the valley of the ashes, and the separation between the rich and the poor. The people on the boat looked at the poor as if they have some rare disease. They do not want to get close to them, and they "stare at the dismal scene for as long as half and hour."
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Hasler, Stephen at 3/9/2008
I completely agree, it was written in a time when there were rich and poor.  The middle class was just beginning to form and the Valley of Ashes really highlights the difference in the two lifestyles.  I agree this could be the most important symbol of the novel, due to the way it portrays the time and the way Nick/Tom/Gatsby/Myrtle lives.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Eikrem, Hannah at 3/8/2008
I agree with everyone who says that the valley of ashes is one of the more important symbols in the novel.  "This is the valley of ashes-- a fantastic farm where ashes grow like wheat into ridges and hills and grotesque gardens, where ashes take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke and finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (p 27).  When Fitzgerald first introduces the valley of ashes, it represent how the decay of society.  I agree with Vasiliy when he said that it represents Gatsby's past and that he cannot escape from his newly found riches. 
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Myers, Andy at 3/9/2008
i do not belive that the valley of ashes represents Gatsby's past, but more so his life right now. It seems to us, by the way Gatsby becomes portrayed, that by not reaching his goals (i.e marrying Daisy) he can not be happy now (much like the people in the valley).
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Gradolf, Sarah at 3/9/2008
The Valley of Ashes could represent Gatsby's old life and his new life.  Like Vasiliy said, on one side is his past that he can never excape, and on the other side is his new life. Gatsby wants to leave his old life behind but can't and he is stuck with the ashes of his past in his new life.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Balfour, David at 3/9/2008
I agree with Joe that the Valley of Ashes is representative of the darker side of Gatsby's life. It is also significant that this  is where Myrtle was killed and George then killed Gatsby because of it. This shows that what happened in the ash fields came back to Gatsby and ultimately led to his demise.  
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Kroll, Yasmin at 3/10/2008
I agree with Joe that the Valley of Ashes represents how Gatsby was in a state of denial about how his lavish life was simply a cover up plan to impress Daisy. I would like to add that the Valley of Ashes represents the working class and how they worked hard to attempt to achieve great things in their lives. This can also be related to the American dream which was an essential theme througout the 1920's. The Valley of Ashes is contrasted with the artificial competition between East Egg  and West Egg. The Valley of Ashes represents people working hard to reach their goals as compared to the elite of society who had been born into wealth.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Babaie, Anna at 3/8/2008
The word "ashes" connects with death and decay. The valley of ashes represents the way the rich people lived at this time. They try to escape their realities by partying and drinking constantly. Their morals and identities are thrown out the window (they die or decay) in pursuit of status or some temporary happiness.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Lasley , Hannah at 3/8/2008
I agree with Anna's point that the ashes may represent the death and decay of the morals and identities of the whealthier society. It is the whealth that has corrupted these rich people and made them into the superficial, drunk, and self-centered people they are. I was reminded of the quote in the beging of the novel , "It was what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarlily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men" (p7) when I read the chapter describing the valley of ashes where, "ashed take the forms of houses and chimneys and rising smoke and finally, with a transcendent effort, of men who move dimly and already crumbling through the powdery air" (27). The ashes represent the need for money, whealth, and acceptance in society no matter wiether you are rich or poor.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Resnick, Lindsay at 3/8/2008
That is a very good point.  The ashes definitely represent the small, burnt pieces of society's former "wholesomeness".  It represents the decadence of their society.  People in the "roaring twenties" spent, and spent, and spent, until October 1929, when they had nothing left.  Even though the novel was written before the Great Depression, Fitzgerald seemed to have seen it coming, mostly through this symbol of the ashes.  He seems to be telling the reader that "this is what's going to happen if you don't change your ways right now."  And that's exactly what happened- the whole country became a valley of ashes.  "Ocasionally a line of grey cars crawls along an invisible track, gives out a ghastly creak and comes to rest, and immediately the ash-grey men swarm up with leaden spades and stif up an impenetrable cloud which screens their obscure operations from your sight" (27).  This quote shows the depressing nature of everything in the valley of ashes, which, in my opinion, partly represents the future.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Kim, Billy at 3/9/2008
Although I do agree with Lindsay that the "Valley of Ashes" symbolically reflects the contrast between the two societies, the image created by the Valley of Ashes does not depict the future, but in fact portrays the current situation of the story. The degraded part of town shows the present nature of the materialistic society and the consequence of what happens  to people who value self-promotion and wealth more than anything else.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Merkle, Dustin at 3/8/2008

Yes, the Valley of Ashes does represent "death and decay' but i do not think it represents the was the rich people lived. I view it more as the seperation of between the rich and the poor. It represents death because the poor, who live there, are thriving for something meterial rather than something actually meaningful and whenever that happens, it leads to some form of death.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Colcord, Carrie at 3/9/2008

I agree with Dustin. I don't think it represents really anything about the rich people in the novel, but more like someone said above with the juxtaposition. The comparison of the valley of ashes with "West Egg" and "East Egg" is the thing that points out the hopelessness of the rich people's lives. They see the way that people in the valley live and how much more they have, yet they are still filling their lives with meaningless things.

You can also see how the valley represents death and decay with Myrtle's death at the end. She lives in the valley and is pursuing everything superficial because she wants much more than she has, representing many of the people living in the valley. Eventually, this leads her to her death when she desperately pursues Tom in his car.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Mazzini, Angela at 3/9/2008

The valley of ashes is an important symbol - not the most important one. It shows the great contrast between the societies and also where Gatsby came from. I think Fitzgerald shows it to the audience so they can see what would make a young man, in this case James Gatz, want to leave that place and try to succed in the world.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Myers, Cameron at 3/9/2008
The thing that made me feel that the valley of ashes was so important is that while it seems random in the beginning, Fitzgerald really makes its symbolism obvious when Wilson refers to Eckleberg's eyes as God's eyes in the end of the story. The author really made his message clear.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Zhu, David at 3/9/2008
I agree that it's not the most important one. The valley of ashes represents the moral and social decay that results from the pursuit for wealth, where the rich only care about leisure and luxury while ignoring all the negative effects it may have on society. The valley of ashes also symbolizes the plight of poor people like George Wilson, who live among the dirty ashes and almost lose their will to live as a result.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Paek, Hannah at 3/9/2008
The valley of ashes symbolizes the dull lifesytle of the poor. It shows the moral and social decay of society that results from the rich regarding nothing but their own pleasure and wealth. It could also stand for destruction and death since Myrtle Wilson died there and since George Wilson lost his vitality as a result of living there. Also, the valley of ashes is located between West Egg and New York which means that whenever a wealthy socialite has to get to New York, they must always pass by the valley of ashes.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Pellegrom, Matt at 3/9/2008
I'd have to agree with everyone above. The valley of ashes is extremely important to the theme of the novel and the development of the theme. If you look at the note in the back of the novel "Based on the Corona dump in the borough of Queens...." you see that Fitzgerald actually incorporated real life into the novel's theme. The valley does in fact symbolize the dump that the "broken men" live in and acts as a foil for the rich society surrounding it. It shows the blindness and carelessness of the people living around it.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Miles, Melissa at 3/9/2008
I disagree that the valley of ashes represents the superficiality of society.  If anything, the East and West Eggers represent the superficiality of society, from the meaningless conversations at Gatsby's lavish parties to the outrageous desire the Eggers have to impress their fellow Eggers. 
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Guffey, Lauren at 3/9/2008
I agree that the valley of ashes does not represent the superficiality of society.  Clearly, the East and West eggs represent superficiality, while the valley of ashes represents the reality.  THe east and west eggers while seemingly content on the outside, are desolate and barren on the inside.  The valley of ashes shines light upon the state of society, and the east and west egg are simply a camoflauged valley of ashes.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Maxwell, Kevin at 3/9/2008

Regardless of whether or not the valley shows superficiality, it shows a definite divide in the ways the people are living.  While the "Eggers" are attending lavish parties, the people in the valley of ashes are constantly monitored by a pair of eyes that has been there for ages, examining the people.  It definitely shows the presence of a hiererarchy within American society that everyone knows exists.

RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Cagle, Courtney at 3/9/2008
I agree that the valley of ashes shows the superficiality of society. This decayed area, surrounded by the rich area, shows Fitzgerald's view that money will "buy you happiness" and if you are poor there is nothing to live for. This is also represented with Myrtle, who strives to be "high class" when she is with Tom. The act she puts on around Tom (needy and desperate) to show she can be "high class" is also superficial. Even when she acts rich she is still unhappy and her and Tom fight. It just proves that money means nothing and points out the superficiality in all areas of life and wealth.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Lyons, Kristy at 3/9/2008
I disagree with the idea that the Valley of Ashes represents superficiality. It is nothing more than a divider between the rich and the poor, the corrupt and the ones who still are intact with morality.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Boateng, Edrick at 3/9/2008
I agree that the valley of Ashes is the most thematic element. I believe that this represents the superficiality of society and how these things seperate us from each other. You have to pass through the valley of ashes to reach West and East Egg. This represents what seperates us as Americans from each other. People only worry about leaving poverty and achieving greatness.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: inwood, caitlin at 3/9/2008
I disagree that the valley of ashes represents the most significant symbol because it mainly refers to Mr. Wilson and the shows up when Fitzgerald wants to emphasize the difference between the rich and poor, but I don't think that the prevailing theme for the novel is about  the gap between the rich and poor.  The author is trying to show how posessions don't fullfill you, and that money often causes just as many problems as the people with no money have to deal with.  The only difference is that when you have money, it doesn't matter if someone else is hurt because they have something to fall back on.  As Nick notices about Daisy's character, "Her voice is full of money" (127).  It is unfair that the Buchanans can simply move away from their past as if it never happened and will always be secure with themselves when Gatsby is the one who has a kind heart and only wants to be with the woman he loves but suffers for Daisy's mistakes.
RE: The Valley of Ashes
Posted by: Bae, Michael at 3/10/2008
the importance of the valley of ashes can easily be seen as that is where many major plot sequences take place. the mere fact that it is a valley suggests the lowliness of the area. i agree that the superficial lifestyle is what is being represented in comparison of the eggs and the valley.
Gatsby's House
Posted by: Cohen, Stephanie at 3/7/2008

Gatsby's house is an important element throughout the novel.  It shows that Gatsby is chasing his own dream that he can never reach.  He is living in his past, however Daisy has moved on to live in the present based on superficiality.  Gatsby tries to attract Daisy with his beautiful house and parties.  Sadly, "Tom and Daisy-they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made..." (188).  It as if Gatsby is cleaning up Daisy's mess when he takes the blame for killing Myrtle.  Gatsby's house represents both his loyalty to Daisy and Daisy's superficiality.

RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Bell, Jack at 3/8/2008
The house doesn't only represent Daisy's superficiality; it represents Gatsby's as well. This is shown most at the end of the book. None of Gatsby's 'friends' from his parties show up, nor do his fellow bootleggers. Gatsby's father comes and, for the most part, he's more proud of Gatsby's house rather than sad about his death.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Duncan, Brooke at 3/8/2008
The house not only represents Daisy and Gatsby's superficiality,  but the superficiality in the society.  Gatsby has numerous parties with people that he doesn't even know.   People attend the party  just because it's the cool place to be.  He calls all of them "friends".  Their "friendship" is  tested at the end of the novel with Gatsby's funeral.  No one comes.  This shows that the people in the society only care about one thing: themselves.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Lyons, Kristy at 3/9/2008
I agree with you, Brooke. Most of the people that show up to Gatsby's parties aren't invited. They barely have a clue of who he is or what he does. Not only does Gatsby's house represent superficiality, but it displays his infatuation for Daisy, and other inane dreams that he has. 
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Myers, Andy at 3/9/2008

Gatsby uses his house to attract Daisy's need for wealth.  He throws all of his parties hoping that Daisy will show up to one and she never does.  His "friends" show up and he doesnt know them nor does he care.  He uses his house to persue the dream that is marrying Daisy

RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Maxwell, Kevin at 3/9/2008
I don't think his big house is part of his ploy to marry Daisy so much as a way to display his ridiculous wealth to everybody.  Having nobody to care about him has given him just one thing to care about, which is impressing everybody.  Daisy is the last thing missing from his quest to become what he has always desired.  He's always been fascinated with her ability to make wealth look easy, and the only thing missing from making his life outwardly seem to be a fairy tale is a princess.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Winograd, Joe at 3/8/2008
This "superficiality" is a significant theme that Fitzgerald is trying to get across to the reader. Gatsby cannot separate the ideas of dream and reality. He is so obsessed with his past relationship with Daisy that he disregards the realness of their separation  and tries to get her back. Gatsby spends his life establishing a master plan to convince Daisy to come back to him. His life seems very real, but it really is not. Gatsby's "friends" do not even show up for his funeral, and Gatsby's father is more impressed with his son's wealth rather than feeling sad about his death. This shows that even his personal family life is not even real. Fitzgerald is showing how the "American Dream" is not a reality, but rather a cover up.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Lasley , Hannah at 3/8/2008
While I do agree that Gatsby's house represents a certain superficiality in Gatsby and Daisy, I believe that it is not restricted to those characters. It seems that the house represents superficiality in all levels of society, both the poor who like Gatsby's father admire the house and are impressed by its size and decorations and the rich who are so envious of Gatsby's home. All classes of society are represented in a superficial way when they enter the home weither it be Gatsby's father who's "pride in his son AND his son's possesions's was continually increasing"(p180) as he walked through the halls of the home or Daisy who cries when seeing Gatsby's rich possesions, "It makes me sad because I have never seen such- such beautiful shirts before." (98) 
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Hudspeth, Tacy at 3/9/2008
I agree with Hannah.  Not only does Gatsby's house represent the superficiality of his character and Daisy as well, but it represtents their society as a whole.  The fact that so many people showed up at Gatsby's house for his party without even being invited shows their willingness and desire to fit in in their society and be associated with the wealthy class.  "Sometimes they came and went without having met Gatsby at all, came for the party with a simplicity of heart that was its own ticket of admission" (45).  Gatsby's house is the location of all these parties so it comes to be associated with the superficiality and fakeness of the people involved.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Colcord, Carrie at 3/9/2008
Also, this is developed further after Gatsby's death. The fact that no one came to his funeral also shows that their friendships are all based around superficiality, the very thing that friendship shouldn't be based on. Gatsby could no longer have parties at his enormous house, so people stopped caring about him; therefore no one went to his parties. This portrays that these people are completely self-centered. No one ever went to Gatsby's house for his company, but strictly for themselves and to make themselves more popular among the rich. I don't think you can get more superficial than that...
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Cagle, Courtney at 3/9/2008
I like how you say "fakeness." The people that show up to Gatsby's parties are all fake. The only reason they include themselves at these parties is to put on the image that they too are rich and can live the life Gatsby lives. This is ironic though because they don't even know Gatsby and the slightest thing they could have in common is money. This superficial society is the main theme of the novel. The way people just "act" in order to fit in and be noticed is ridiculous and is so fake.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Jenson, Miles at 3/9/2008

I agree with Hannah, I think the house, due to the fact that it is admired by both levels of classes ( the rich and the poor), represents the shallowness on both ends of the different classes in the book.  It serves as an elimination to pure honesty in both spectrums of society. The rich attend Gatsby's parties to maintain their prestigous status, and the poor admire his house because they think expensive possesions (things they don't have) define and create happiness in someone's life. His house efficiently marks the corruption on both ends of the community. Most of all, however, Gatsby's house represents the deep insincerity and materialistic ways within himself. He upholds such a high standard of living not because he enjoys it, but to attract attention and admiration. He does not want friends, he wants fans, and by surrounding himself with people desperate to experience an extravagant lifestyle by attracting them with ridiculous measures and examples of his wealth, he doesnt allow any true reflection of himself or a substantial friend around him. By protecting himself with people that are so desperate to be something their not, he detaches himself from reality and lives in some surreal place he built for himself with money.

RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Clark, Julie at 3/8/2008
I agree that the house is a huge symbol of superficiality.  it has to be perfect, just like the grass.  Gatsby is cleaning up her mess.  The part you mentioned, 'let other people clean up the mess they had made' killed me.  The issues and superficiality here are very deeply embedded into the novel and the relationship. 
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Babaie, Anna at 3/8/2008

Gatsby's house shows how attracted people were to wealth and status. After they meet again at Nick's house, Gatsby takes Daisy over to his house to show off how luxurious his life is now because he knows how attracted she is to money. Before this, Daisy only seemed mildly interested in seeing Gatsby. But once she sees how rich he has become, she becomes much more enthusiastic.

RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: howard, gabriel at 3/9/2008
I agree with anna. Gatsby uses his house as a way to brag about his new found money. He also uses it to attract Daisy. Gatsby feels that daisy will like him more because of his money. This ends up working when he invites daisy to his house and she becomes excited about his "lovely shirts."
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Eikrem, Hannah at 3/8/2008
I personally don't think that Gatsby's house is an important symbol in this novel.  I don't understand how the house shows that Gatsby is chasing his own dream that he is unable to reach.  I think that there are several more important symbols in the novel that represent this more than the house.  I do agree when you said that Gatsby is trying to attract Daisy with his extravagant parties, but she also has a life of luxoury with Tom. 
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Mazzini, Angela at 3/9/2008
I think that Gatsby's house represents his superficiality tied with society's influence. The only reason he bought the house was to attract Daisy because he thought that by showing off his money, he could get her back. That's what society showed people that they could buy happiness or in this case love, by showing off. Then when Gatsby and Daisy start meeting in his house, we can see how he lets the beautiful house just deteriorate because he got what he wanted and he doesn't want all the attention anymore.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Pellegrom, Matt at 3/9/2008
I'd have to both agree and disagree with the posts above. Gatsby's house does represent his dream of finally reaching out to Daisy, bu in an overexxagerated way. Gatsby has already acquired everyone else's dream in this era- wealth, which shows his blindness to others around him. This just shows how stubborn he really is and how he will do anything to achieve his personal American Dream, just like the rest of society.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Stribos, Michael at 3/9/2008
He is only looking out for two people, himself and daisy. After Daisy hits Mrs. Wilson they don't stop the car, they continue driving, but at night he stays around her house to make sure she is ok. He doesn't throw those big parties to get to know people, he throws them to gloat about his money and to try to get the attention of daisy.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Ide, Gabby at 3/9/2008

Gatsby's house does represent the superficiality of society, but I also think it represents society's view of the "American Dream."  Society influences people, including Gatsby and even Daisy, that if you have money and you know lots of important people, you have everything you need to be happy in life and that's all anyone wants.  But what they don't tell you is that the American Dream is a lie, money and fame can't always bring you happiness.  Gatsby's house is filled with expensive splendors and whatnots and he has these extravagant parties all to attract this woman, but in the end money couldn't buy her love and it couldn't buy Gatsby happiness.  When Gatsby died, no one came to his funeral because even though he had money, he didn't have many friends.  His life was centered around his house and the superficial belongings inside to attract Daisy and when it didn't work he had nothing left to live for.

RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Harney, Casey at 3/9/2008
I completely agree that Gatsby's house is one of the most important elements in the novel. Another characteristic of the house that has not been mentioned but is very symbolic is Gatsby's swimming pool. His pool has not been used all summer. He ironically decides to take a swim on a crisp autumn day after dealing with the ridiculous situation of Myrtle's death and then Wilson shoots him. The pool in which Gatsby has used to entertain numerous guests (mostly people he did not know) is now where he is found dead and alone. It represents the materialistic side of Gatsby as mentioned in the discussions of his house and yet it also greatly represents his death and the loneliness in which he lived.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Massey, Kate at 3/9/2008
I think the most interesting part of the house as a symbol is the fact that Gatsby tries to use his house to attract Daisy. The fatal flaw in that plan, though (pardon the pun) is that he fails to recognize what Daisy actually wants. Daisy has a nice house. Tom's money is the only reason she married him. What Daisy needs is love, approval for who she really is, and an opportunity to live free of the constraints of her life with Tom. Gatsby doesn't really pay attention to all of those things, though, and tries instead to lure her using the only bait he can think of - something she already has.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Harney, Meredith at 3/9/2008
I agree with what Kate said. I think that Gatsby's house represents one of the most important messages in the novel: the emptiness of society. Gatsby fills his house with beautiful objects and beautiful people because the thinks that what he's supposed to do for Daisy. He still feels empty though and like Kate mentioned so does Daisy. She's searching for nonmaterial wealth and she can't find it leaving her empty.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Cotney, Grayson at 3/9/2008
Gatsby's house shows the superficiality and emptiness of the upper class.  He has these great parties that all his "friends" attend, but when Gatsby dies, nobody attends his funeral.  They only care about their next high or drunken stupor.  Everyone cares about looking good and having the nicest stuff, as evidenced with Gatsby's suits, car, and Owleyes's exclamation about real books. 
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Balfour, David at 3/9/2008
I agree that the house shows the superficiality of the upper class. It also shows how desperately Gatsby wants to see Daisy again because he bought the house directly across the bay from her. He threw parties hoping that she would walk into his house one night. The people who do attend these parties are the most superficial of all because they don't care about Gatsby at all they just care about having fun.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Bickwit, Kyle at 3/9/2008
Gatsby's house is the most important symbolic element througuot the novel.  It represents a scheme of themes that the reader can visualize through many rhetorical devices and strategies.  The events that occur at the house not only show Gatsby's superficiality but his constant attempts to impress the high-society visitors that he entertains.  The house also creates the juxtaposition of West Egg and East Egg and the difference of the "type" of money that the different residents possess.  The house also represents the incredible will of Gatsby to show that he is worthy of his "friends" from East Egg.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Kim, Billy at 3/9/2008
I agree that the house does indeed epitomize the upper class' stark nature. First of all the bleak and meaningless house party's that every attends lends evidence that the rich are in fact hollow-headed almost. Next, the house's extravagance says a lot because although it's filled with beautiful and rich things, the owner and the empty atmosphere of the area evidently show that that house isn't what you think its like.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Boateng, Edrick at 3/9/2008
I don't believe that Gatsby's house is the most important theme. Although it represents the dream that Gatsby chases, it dosen't address the fact of how Gatsby changed. In the beginning of the book, Nick says that Gatsby turns all right in the end. After Daisy runs off with Nick, Gatsby starts to see that money can't buy everything. The house can't be the most important symbol because it is the site of change for Gatsby and change isn't the main theme in the book. Most of the characters don't change and are content with living their same lives.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Boateng, Edrick at 3/9/2008
I don't believe that Gatsby's house is the most important theme. Although it represents the dream that Gatsby chases, it dosen't address the fact of how Gatsby changed. In the beginning of the book, Nick says that Gatsby turns all right in the end. After Daisy runs off with Nick, Gatsby starts to see that money can't buy everything. The house can't be the most important symbol because it is the site of change for Gatsby and change isn't the main theme in the book. Most of the characters don't change and are content with living their same lives.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Boateng, Edrick at 3/9/2008
I don't believe that Gatsby's house is the most important theme. Although it represents the dream that Gatsby chases, it dosen't address the fact of how Gatsby changed. In the beginning of the book, Nick says that Gatsby turns all right in the end. After Daisy runs off with Nick, Gatsby starts to see that money can't buy everything. The house can't be the most important symbol because it is the site of change for Gatsby and change isn't the main theme in the book. Most of the characters don't change and are content with living their same lives.
RE: Gatsby's House
Posted by: Boateng, Edrick at 3/9/2008
I don't believe that Gatsby's house is the most important theme. Although it represents the dream that Gatsby chases, it dosen't address the fact of how Gatsby changed. In the beginning of the book, Nick says that Gatsby turns all right in the end. After Daisy runs off with Nick, Gatsby starts to see that money can't buy everything. The house can't be the most important symbol because it is the site of change for Gatsby and change isn't the main theme in the book. Most of the characters don't change and are content with living their same lives.
The Geen Light
Posted by: Bitters, Ryan at 3/8/2008
The green light appears several times throughout the story, at points in which Fitzgerald highlights the significance of Gatsby's dream.  We first see it in the end of chapter 1 when Nick is observing Gatsby from across his lawn as he has "come out to determine what share was his of [their] local heavens."(p.26)  Nick spots the lone green light, minute and far away.  The light is abound whenever the dream is strong, in fact the one time the significance of the light is downplayed by Gatsby is when he has Daisy in his arms, believing that his dream is at last reality, "possibly it had occurred to him that the colossal significance of that light had now vanished forever." (p.98)  In the end of the novel, Nick says that Gatsby, "believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us,"(p.189)  He says that even though it eluded us, we will always try and try harder with the foolish hope that one day we will succeed.  The green light serves as the centerpiece for this novel, coming to symbolize the never ending chase of our dreams.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Duncan, Brooke at 3/8/2008
I agree with Ryan.  The green light symbolizes what people are striving for in life and their dreams.  The light represent the life-long pursuit of our dreams.  In the novel, the light is normally strong, but once when Gatsby finally has his dream (Daisy) right in front of him, the green light fades.  People will chase their dreams and hope that one day their dreams will become reality.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Winograd, Joe at 3/8/2008
The green light fades, which symbolizes the idea that some dreams cannot be reached. Gatsby became very rich, but he was not happy because he did not have Daisy. After he came back from the war, he spent his life trying to become rich and popular to impress Daisy, and it worked. However, Daisy was married to Tom, and she could not let go of that relationship. This ruined Gatsby's unreachable dream. Fitzgerald does this to define the idea that being rich and famous does not create happiness. This is how the "American Dream" is flawed.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Lasley , Hannah at 3/8/2008
I deffinately agree with this point that the fading green light represents what Gatsby wants but can never get. His abundance of wealth and material items do not replace the void he feels as a result of not being able to "have" Daisy. The fading green light is an excellent metaphor for how all the money and riches in the world will not buy you what you want most, or in Gatsby's case who you want most. To often do people think that by gaining all the material things in life the result will be unending happiness. It also represents the point that you can not "buy" everything you want in life.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Cohen, Stephanie at 3/9/2008

I agree that the green light shows how the American Dream is flawed.  It represents Gatsby's dream of the ideal life: to be married to Daisy.  He does everything he can to impress her, but still does not end up happy. "He had come a long way to this blue lawn and his dream must have seemed so close that he could hardly fail to garsp it.  He did not know that it was already behind him..."  Gatsby's dream is unreachable.   

RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Walker, Corey at 3/9/2008
Gatsby's goal in life is to become wealthy.  Daisy represents wealth from both her social status and monetary status.  Since Gatsby strives for wealth that means he is also trying to get Daisy, because she herself represents wealth.  The green light is a symbol of Daisy's wealth, and as it fades it represents Gatsby's ability to have her fading away. 
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Balfour, David at 3/9/2008
The green light represents Gatsby desire for Daisy. The green light is only across the bay from Gatsby but it seems so far to him. He bought his house for the sole reason of being close to Daisy and showing her how rich and successful he is. He is hoping that he can still hold on to her even though she has moved on and it can never be like it once was.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Boateng, Edrick at 3/9/2008
The green light represents his undying desire to attain his dreams. The light stays on until he gets Daisy and sees that the reality dosen't measure up to the dream, and the light fades out as his dream fades. So yes, I agree that the green light is one of the most important symbols in The Great Gatsby
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Cagle, Courtney at 3/9/2008
This is an excellent point. Although the green light symbolizes dreams and determinations in the world, the fading of it symbolizes loss and failure. Gatsby's dream was to be the best to win Daisy back but in the end he failed and never got the girl. I also agree with you that Fitzgerald is showing us how money and popularity do not accomplish anything. Maybe you will be happy sometimes, but in the end nothing will show for it. Like Gatsby's funeral for example. He had all these wonderful, fancy parties and many people came to meet the "famous Gatsby." After he died, however, no one came to his funeral besides Nick and his father. So what Fitzgerald is saying here is to not be consumed in materialistic things, but to create dreams that will bring you happiness in the end.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: howard, gabriel at 3/9/2008
I agree with everybody else that says the green light is a really important symbol in the story. The green light symbolizes Gatsby's dream of the "new world." (p. 189). Gatsby's dream of being with Daisy seems to bo so close to him that he "could hardly fail to gasp it." (p. 189)
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Ide, Gabby at 3/9/2008
What if the green light represents the past and how Gatsby yearns for everything to be like it was before he went to the war and Daisy married Tom?  It could represent the absolute desire for Daisy and want for everything to be the same, but the past cannot be repeated and slowly slips out of our grip as time goes on.  The light fading represents Gatsby's hold slipping on the past and it shows that time has to move on and nothing can stay the same forever.  Just like Gatsby can't have Daisy forever since she is married to Tom.  Their short time together is nice, but it eventually fades just like the green light.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Hackler, Leslie at 3/10/2008
(absent,excused)I agree with Gabby, I also think that it shows how people can hold on to the past and not move onward toward the future, they cling to things that will never be again.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Clark, Julie at 3/8/2008
I definately agree that this was very important in the novel.  great support quotes. 
the green light does 'serve as the centerpiece' and ties Gatsby's dreams together. 

RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Clark, Julie at 3/8/2008
Green also connects to money.  Part of Gatsby's dreams were of self improvement.  (154) The "enormous [house]" was often "full of interesting people, night and day" because he had to "live there all alone." (96) He thought money would win Daisy.  His money was part of his corruption, unhappinness, lonlieness, and downfall. 
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Merkle, Dustin at 3/8/2008

The green light is definetly important for that reason. The way money is viewed in the novel and in society, it is a must. Daisy said that she hopes for a daughter that is a "beautiful fool", because she is too smart for the society, and men were able to win women over with their money, and that is what Gatsby is hoping for. good post.

RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Saffer, Anna at 3/9/2008
I completely agree that the green light goes with the idea of money.  But this is partly because when you think about it, you may ask, why green? why not red or yellow?  or blue? blue can be corrolated with dreams a lot, but it is green.  This is normally symbolic for greed and money, large parts of this novel.  The light proves how greedy the society is.  They all want what will make them feel better, while ignoring others.  The light is that unreachable want that each character longs for, which can also be considered as their dream. 
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Hasler, Stephen at 3/9/2008
I dont agree that this is the most important symbol in the novel.  The most common thought is it symbolizes his longing for Daisy, and you bring up a good point about the money.  But, I dont think this is the most important idea the author trying to bring up (Gatsby's longing or that the light is green for money).
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Babaie, Anna at 3/8/2008
The green light also helps show that our dreams don't always turn out the way we expect. Gatsby has obsessed over reuniting with Daisy for years. When he finally gets to be with her again though, he feels like the green light fades away. "It had seemed as close as a star to the moon. Now it was again a green light on a dock. His count of enchanted objects had diminished by one" (98). During all these years of waiting, he had made Daisy to be this divine symbol in his mind, and when he finally reaches his dream, he finds that it is not as wonderful as he had imagined.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Paek, Hannah at 3/9/2008

The green light is probably one of the most important symbols of the book. It represents Gatsby's dream, which is to be with Daisy. In chapter 1, Nick sees Gatsby reaching toward the green light in the darkness. It seems as if he is reaching towards the light to lead him to his dream. The green light could also represent the American dream.In Chapter 9, Nick compares the green light to how America must have looked to early settlers of the new world."And as the moon rose higher the inessential houses began to melt away until gradually I became aware of the old island here that flowered once for Dutch sailors' eyes- a fresh, green breast of the new world." (p. 189)

RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Kao, Kathryn at 3/9/2008
I agree with Ryan. The green light represents Gatsby's chase for his dream. Although he may seem strong-headed by doing this the green light also represents his naivety. It is apparant that Gatsby is blinded by his fantasy of being with Daisy and throughout his life he tries to re-create the past. The green light represents the future slipping away as people continue to linger in the past. Basically, Gatsby can not live in the future unless he gives up on transforming his unrealistic fantasy into a reality. Gatsby puts energy into achieving a goal that is impossible to reach. The green light also reflects upon the American Dream in which people strive to achieve wealth and independence, these superficial characters have all acquired wealth but still live unfulfilled and phony lives. The last sentence: "So we beat on , boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past" (189) represents how people are slowly moving away from the green light. The American Dream is crumbling as individualism is resorted to amoral and unrealistic ways of acquiring wealth and satisfaction.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Bitters, Ryan at 3/9/2008
I like that you brought up Gatsby's naivety, I didn't notice it as much at first but looking back I think that he even reveals this when he reflects on the light on p. 98, "compared to the great distance that had separated him from Daisy it had seemed very near to her.  It had seemed as close as a star to the moon.  Now it was again a green light on a dock."  He's always made this huge association with the light and Daisy that he's obsessed over it and gave it some deep meaning, but now he realizes that even though they looked so close to each other they're really quite distant.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Fox, Natalie at 3/11/2008
I definitly agree in that the green light is a major symbol in developing Gatsy as a character. For the longest time Gatsy is this mysterious, seemingly spectacular person, when really he's just like everyone else; chasing the unattainable dream. The green light is something he is always looking towards, and it's something he always wants. It's Daisy breaking it off with Tom; it's him being well-respected for how he actually earns all his money; it's all a dillusion. The green light symbolizes what the characters convince themselves they can have, not what they actually do.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Pellegrom, Matt at 3/9/2008
I would have to agree with everything that Ryan is saying. Even though the green light may seem insignificant and small thematically in this novel, it is probably the single most important symbol we see. This represents the actual American Dream, no matter who. In this case Gatsby is chasing after "the green light" but everyone in this novel has their own green lights. Tom wants women, Daisy wants freedom, and the ash men want money. In a way, the green light represents hope, but sometimes you must cross a whole bay just to reach it.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Miles, Melissa at 3/9/2008

The most significant aspect of "The Great Gatsby" is what the green light represents: hope and the hope for money.  What Gatsby hopes for in this novel is rather ridiculous to most, yet he puts all his energy and life into his object of affection, Daisy.  While it is true that he never actually attains her, according to Nick "Gatsby turned out all right at the end" (6).  On page 129, we can again see that the color green is a symbol of hope.  Here Tom is at Wilson's garage with Nick and Jordan: "With an effort Wilson left the shade and support of the doorway and, breathing hard, unscrewed the cap of the tank.  In the sunlight his face was green."  While it may be referring to the fact that Wilson felt sick, it can also be interpretted as Wilson's hope to take his wife out west (130). 

RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Myers, Cameron at 3/9/2008
Why yes Bitters, the green light is a vastly important symbol in the book. In fact, along with TJ Eckleberg's eyes in the valley of ashes, the green light is probably one of the most important parts of the book. I feel that they are both related as well. The green light represents the American dream that everyone is chasing, while God's eyes are watching over America while it slips into corruption and unfulfilled desires.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Zhu, David at 3/9/2008

The Green Light represents, along with chasing our dreams, how our dreams can come to consume us.
Like a light, when you reach a dream, it’s always anticlimactic. The dream of Daisy consumed Gatsby, but when he actually attained her, it wasn't all that he thought it would be. He built her up in his mind, because like the light, he saw her from a distance, but when it comes down to it, the light was just a little light on a dock. It represents how we can build up an image or idea in our mind and follow after it, but when we actually reach it, its never what we thought it was. "Possibly it had occurred to him that the colossal significance of that light had now vanished forever." (p.98)

RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Bell, Jack at 3/9/2008
I agree, I think that this is probably the most significant symbol in the book. It encompasses all the the major themes of The Great Gatsby-- especially the faults of the American dream. It's also the most connected to the overall mood of the book. All this being said, I didn't find the book to be, in general, overly symbolic... I liked the moderate use of several important symbols.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: inwood, caitlin at 3/9/2008
I believe the green light represents the most significant symbol throughout the novel because it directly relates to the plot which is Gatsby's and Daisy's relationship.  The green light is most definitely representative of Gatsby's fantasy of having a future with her, but yet it is distant and difficult to reach.  Daisy, inturn is unreachable, and on a completely different level of society, she on the old, he on the new side.  Fitzgerald describes daisy as "High in a white palace the king's daughter, the golden girl..." (127).  He is foreshadowing that she is too high of a reach for Gatsby, even if he is wealthy she has moved on and is too accustomed to east egg life rather than the young and socailly thriving west egg neighborhood.  The light defines "the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us(189)",the past he wanted to relive, but could not be physically obtained no matter how hard he tried to impress her.  The theme is that people cannot live in the past, but only in the future because time and people evolve over time.
RE: The Geen Light
Posted by: Kroll, Yasmin at 3/10/2008
I agree with Ryan Bitters that the green light  portrays the most important thematic development in the novel. As well as Gatsby chasing his dream of the past, I also believe that the green light symbolizes the chasing of the American dream. During this era, many people of a working class status attempted to climb the ladder of success in the hopes of achieving a status of wealth that would guarantee them happiness.
Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Demchenko, Vasiliy at 3/8/2008

Dr. Eckleburg comes up frequently in the novel.  His eyes "dimmed a little by many paitless days under sun and rain, brood on over the solemn dumping ground" (28).  They represent how distant society is from itself.  It's as if the rich part of society constantly watches over the Valley of Ashes.  In addition, the eyes represent the always watching eyes of God, "'God sees everything,' repeated Wilson.  'That's an advertisement,' Michaelis assured him" (167).  The advertisement represents some greater being that always watches over the ashes. 

RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Merkle, Dustin at 3/8/2008

This is the most important symbol in The Great Gatsby. like Vasiliy said, it shows the all seeing eyes of God. Which is interesting because these people are doing what the Bible descrribes as being morally wrong, It's during the time of prohibition, which was put in place mostly for religious reasons, yet there are still huge drinking parties. There is this billboard that represents the seeing eyes of God, and Nick is the only person who notices. The people are too caught up in there own lives to notice anything morally.

RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Resnick, Lindsay at 3/8/2008
I agree that this is by far the most important symbol in the novel.  I, too, think that it represents the eyes of at least some kind of omnipresent being.  The characters in the novel, other than Nick, are a microcosm of high society back in the 1920s.  They did not notice anything about anyone or anything around them but themselves.  They also forgot about God or any morals.  They forgot about God's eyes looking down upon them and scrutinizing their every move, their every decision.  Strangely, though, Wilson is the only one who sees the true symbolism of the eyes, and he's "the crazy one".  "God sees everything."  (167)
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Stribos, Michael at 3/9/2008
I agree with dustin that his eyes are the most important symbol in the novel. The microcosm described by lindsay is perfect of that time period. The rich look out for themselves and not others. Doctor TJ Eckleberg's eyes are like big brother in"1984". They are on posters and always watching.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Kroll, Yasmin at 3/10/2008

T.J. Eckleburg is a large billboard with 'allseeing eyes.' I believe these represent the eyes of judgment over this corrupt upperclass society. It is interesting that Fitzgerald expresses the blue eyes being shaded by "yellow spectacles" since yellow represents dishonesty, I also believe that the allseeing eyes are 'shaded' with dishonesty. The readers tried to uncover the truth about each character, however they are given many perspectives to consider. An example of this is when Nick hears that Gatsby attended Oxford. Gatsby then proves this to Nick with evidence in the form of a picture of his Oxford days. Later we discover that Nick only attended Oxford for five months. The eyes of truth are clouded by the various accounts of Gatsby's education.

RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: howard, gabriel at 3/9/2008
I dont agree with this being the most important symbol in the novel. yes this is a really important symbol that represents the the "all seeing eyes of God," but we only see these eyes when they are in the valley of ashes. The eyes never show up when they are in west egg or east egg. Are only the people in the valley of ashes immoral? Are the people living in west and east egg moral cause they are rich? i just feel kinda empty with the eyes, like there needs to more to them to make it the most important symbol
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Jenson, Miles at 3/9/2008

I agree with Gabe, I do not think that Eckleburg's eyes stand as the most important symbol in the novel, nor do I think that their, (in my opinion), lack in the novel serves as the keypoint in the story either. I just dont see how something so scarcely mentioned can be the most important symbol, I think it serves as more of a platform for the more important symbols, such as shallowness, corruption, and narcissism. Due to the absence of the supposedly judgemental eyes of Eckleburg, those symbols stand out more and are reflected in many more dimensions.

RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Myers, Andy at 3/9/2008
I agree with Dustin.  The eyes of Dr. TJ Eckleberg symbolize the unjudging eyes of God looking down on those in the valley of Ash.  The eyes give a sense to Nick to watch his actions and make good decisions while the others, like Dustin said, are too obsessed with the superficiality in their lives.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Richardson, Brittany at 3/9/2008

I agree with Dustin in that Dr. T.J Eckleburg is an very important character in the book. I remember in a book we read about how big brother is watching you and this symbol reminds me of that. Its shows how he sees everything that going on. Such as people seeing peoples sins in which they think is a secret. But i like how dustin brought up the prohibition because thats a really good point.

RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Zhu, David at 3/9/2008
I agree with you Dustin. The eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg may represent God staring down upon and judging American society.  George Wilson also makes the the connection between the eyes of Doctor T. J. Eckleburg and God in his grief. The eyes can also represent the essential meaninglessness of the world. Nick explores these ideas in Chapter 8, when he imagines Gatsby’s final thoughts as a depressed consideration of the emptiness of symbols and dreams.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Hudspeth, Tacy at 3/9/2008
I agree with Vasiliy.  The eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg which look over the valley of ashes is a very important symbol in this novel.  It not only represents the distance in society between the wealthy and lower class but the eyes could also be a representation of God watching the corupt society as a whole.  Throughout the novel different characters take the eyes to mean different things, however, George Wilson is the only one that draws the connection between the all-seeing eyes and God.  He tells Myrtle that the eyes are watching her, most likely trying to scare her into not seeing Tom anymore and making her feel guilty for what she had already done. "'God knows what you've been going, everything you've been going.  You may fool me but you can't fool God!'" (167).
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Gradolf, Sarah at 3/9/2008
I agree. The eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg represent the eyes of God looking over society. Throughout the novel whenever Dr. T.J. Eckleburg is mentioned, the characters are traveling through the valley of ashes. The valley of ashes may represent a hard times for characters and Dr. T.J. Eckleburg's eyes could represent God watching over the characters as they pass through. "Standing behind him Michaelis saw with a shock that he was looking at the eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg which had just emerged pale and enormous from the dissolving night" (167).  The eyes are always there to see what is going on when you least expcest it, like the eyes of God do.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Fox, Natalie at 3/12/2008
I disagree that the eyes of Dr. TJ Eckleburg is the most important symbol in the book. While I see its relevance in a lot of ways, the billboard is simply not mentioned enough. Yes, I see them as the eyes of God, and I suppose it's bad to say the eyes of God isn't the most important symbol in the book, but I don't think it is. The billboard is merely there; no one interacts with it, and again, it's barely mentioned. I think there are far more prominent and noticeable symbols.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: quinn, kristen at 3/9/2008
I dont think that the eyes of Dr. T.J. Eckleburg are the most important element in Great Gatsby. I actually dont even believe they represent the eyes of God. I see those comments as the peoples way to seek some sort of other power that could bring them justice. They are poor and hopeless, thus in their struggle reaching towards an invisible power in hopes that it can save them. Wilson is torn up by his love for Myrtle and simply wants some sort of guilt for her disloyalty. The eyes to me stress more of the power of the wealthy; that they can so easily control entire towns- the concept that money is happiness and power. Money can get you whatever you want, or at least Gatsby so believes.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Massey, Kate at 3/9/2008
I think that's an interesting point, but I still think the doctor is supposed to represent God. Setting aside the fact that every Great American Novel has a God metaphor somewhere, I think the parallels are too many to make a case against the metaphor. First of all, the fact that he's an eye doctor (or an "oculist," as Nick so quaintly calls him on pg. 24) who places bespectacled eyes to watch over the valley of ashes ties in with the whole "in his own image" bit about the non-metaphorical God. Also, I'd say that since he never does anything at all, but gets mentioned time and time again, makes the case for him being a God character. People seem to feel his presence and think about him, rather disproportionately to his role in their lives, making it near impossible that he's supposed to represent anything but the big man himself.
RE: Dr. T.J. Eckleburg
Posted by: Walker, Corey at 3/9/2008
I agree with Vasily,  Dr. Eckleburg obviously represents God.  In the book it doesn't quite specify how long the sign has been there, but we can assume that it has been there for some time.  This is important because Dr. Eckleburg is witnessing the decline of society.  He has most likely seen what society once was and how great it was, and now he is witnessing the decline of society from where it once was.
the GRASS
Posted by: Clark, Julie at 3/8/2008

The most powerful and slightly concealed symbol is grass.  When Nick is helping Gatsby plan his get-together with Daisy, they look at the grass at Nick’s house.  Reluctantly, Gatsby says “I want to get the grass cut.”  Then they looked at the grass, “there was a sharp line where my ragged lawn ended and the darker, well-kept expanse of his began.” (p.87)  When Gatsby is worrying about his meeting with Daisy, he asks if everything is all right.  Nick responds and says the grass looks fine to which the response is “ ‘What grass?  Oh, the grass in the yard.’  He looked out the window at it, but judging from his expression I don’t believe he saw a thing.” (89)  What Gatsby had seen as important was now the least of his worries.  This partly symbolizes his corruption as a human being.  He may seem different from the other rich people, but he, too, will see things as important (because of his money/position), but when he gets right down to the point of importance, and it really doesn’t matter. 

 

The sharp line of difference represents the difference of his life and Nick’s and the difference of West and East Egg.  East Egg, the egg of superior company, would never see a sharp line of difference of grass lengths.  The green grass there is always perfect.  (Like that perfect Walgreens world.)  This important difference of grasses not only demonstrates the difference of Nick and Gatsby’s lives in society, but HOW Gatsby was different from those who lived on East Egg.  (what made him “exempt from my reaction.” (p.6) ) Gatsby was exempt from the reaction because he could place himself on a plane with the other people of the world, in the ashes, rather than next to the other rich mansions, all for one person. 


Gatsby and Nick live so differently, from entertainment to luxuries.  When Daisy went to wash her face, Nick thought “in humiliation of my towels while Gatsby and I waited on the lawn.” (95)  When Daisy was being introduced to Gatsby’s house, she toured the “gardens… and plum blossoms” and could see the incredible difference of how each man lived.  Remember that the gay parties occurred on the lawn, occasionally looking like the “world’s fair.” (86)  That ‘sharp line’ divided more than just two lawns.  This striking difference between the houses on these pages created a powerful image of the man Gatsby had become v. the man he was/did not want to be.
 

“He must have looked up at an unfamiliar sky through frightening leaves and shivered as he found what a grotesque thing a rose is and how raw the sunlight was upon the scarcely created grass.”  (169; end of Ch.8)  A great example of Fitgerald’s style, a grotesque rose and raw sunlight on scarcely created grass is disheartening.  This is such a depressing, yet powerful thought.  This view of the world was discussed shortly before shots were fired.  The powerful statement is filled with rich images and unanswered questions.  Did Gatsby die a severely depressed man?  The depressing view of life, roses, sun, and grass, seem to imply that he was more deeply troubled that he seemed.
 

Finally, after the death of Gatsby, Fitzgerald comments once more on the grass.  (188)  “Gatsby’s house was still empty when I left- The grass on his lawn had grown as long as mine.”  The issues with the grass had gone full circle.  The passage of time and fate is greatly illustrated here.  Gatsby died, and life moved on.  The grass continued to grow.  But when Gatsby moved, time stood still.  Everything at his home seemed to stop.  The care of the house, the parties… understandably, it all ceased.  Gatsby’s unique difference from the other people that ‘represented everything for which I have unaffected scorn’ was gone.  (6) The grass’ tidy look was gone.  The sharp line was gone.  The grass had blended into Nick’s.  The perfect grass had blended into the lifestyle that Gatsby never wanted. 

RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Demchenko, Vasiliy at 3/8/2008

You mention that the grass Gatsby's riches and the superficiality of it, but I believe that, as previously mentioned by Stephanie, the house represents his fakeness a lot more.  As you mention, the grass represents a line dividing the rich and the poor, the old and new Gastby but I feel that the grass is not the most important element that shows this division.  For expamle, the Valley of Ashes shows the separation more clearly.

RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Kao, Kathryn at 3/9/2008
I agree with Vasiliy. I don't believe that the grass represents the corruption of Gatsby or Nick, but rather that people try to conform to society. Gatsby only wants to impress Daisy and he feels that the lawn isn't up to par with her standards. The grass is just another factor that emphasizes Gatsby's desire to live an extravagant life and to win Daisy's approval. As a matter of fact, Gatsby only bought his gaudy mansion to impress Daisy and throws parties every week hoping that she will stumble into his house and be reunited with her. Your assumption about the unkept grass at the end after Gatsby dies is great! I do believe that the grass is connected to Gatsby's house and that once he died, the grass along with the empty house went to ruins as it became neglected by his servants. Gatsby's passion to impress, obviously died after his death and so the grass, having nothing to impress runs wild.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Walker, Corey at 3/9/2008

The grass not only represents a line dividing rich and poor, but a representation for wealth.  In the book Jordan Baker is a golfer, and golfers play on lush fields of grass.  Wen Nick talks about the picture with Gatsby in it holding a cricket bat, it means that Gatsby played cricket, on grass.  The grass symbolizes wealth and leisure, which is why it comes up in the story so often.

RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Gradolf, Sarah at 3/9/2008
I agree, the grass is not the most important symbol of the division in the novel. As Vasiliy said, the Valley of the Ashes separates East and West Egg very distinctly. I do see where the grass may be seen as a good divider. "We both looked at the grass—there was a sharp line where my ragged lawn ended and the darker, well-kept expanse of his began" (87).  But I think the division shown by the Valley of the Ashes is much more significant than the grass.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Massey, Kate at 3/9/2008
I won't refute what's been said above, but I think the grass is, comparatively, a rather insignificant symbol. It shows up a few times, gives us an idea of where everything stands in the novel, then recedes back into the background. On the converse, the green light on the end of Daisy's dock whacks us over the head with rich symbolism, as do the valley of ashes and everybody's favorite eye doctor.
Also, the gap between rich and poor, superficial and genuine, is hardly a new idea. Fitzgerald comes up with some very inventive, non-trite stuff in Gatsby, and his inclusion of this trite symbol is merely cursory.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Bickwit, Kyle at 3/9/2008
I agree with Kate.  When the grass symbol first appeared, it seemed like it might become a major symbolic element of the novel but it ends up taking a slightly lowered level of importance to Gatsby's house and the green light.  You are also right with the gap between rich and poor, superficiality, etc.  Fitzgerald just exemplifies these classic themes vividly.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Kim, Billy at 3/9/2008
When i read the various part of the book where it introduced the grass, I felt like the grass symbolically portrayed Gatsby and how wanted to fit into society. He continuously tended it and trimmed it, as conventional standards dictate. He doesn't want to look out of the ordinary and therefore maintains a plain lifestyle.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Hasler, Stephen at 3/9/2008
I agree it symbolizes his wanting to fit in and look like everyone else.  Because he was a bootlegger he had to try as hard as possible to fit in.  The grass is a perfect symbol for this.  He wants to be flashy, (with all his parties) but only to get Daisy's attention,he  eventually wants conform and be like the grass after he gets her back.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Guffey, Lauren at 3/9/2008
I also feel that this symbol is less significant although I wouldn't say it was entirely insignificant as it does give a strong visual to the division between rich and poor. However, the valley of ashes and other symbols rank higher on the list of important symbols for me.  I feel like Fitzgerald added this symbol as a supporting symbol for the larger more important symbols.
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Paek, Hannah at 3/9/2008

I agree that the grass is one of the less significant symbols of the book.  Even though the grass draws up a line between the rich and the poor, the visual that it gives is not as strong as the Valley of Ashes, which clearly shows the division between the opulent, glamorous West Egg to the poor, dull Valley of Ashes, then to the elite New York City. Like Lauren said, I think that Fitzgerald added the symbol of grass as a supporting symbol for a much larger and important symbol.

RE: the GRASS
Posted by: Jenson, Miles at 3/9/2008
I have no real stance on the grass, but rather on what Kate said about receding symbols. I think that the fact that many symbols appear and then sort of ebb away throughout the book reflects the wavering stability and moral conviction of the characters and their relationships with one another. Due to the fact that many symbols blatently stare us in the face and then diminish into an assortment of afterthoughts, the characters follow a similar path. Because the characters in Gatsby serve as the living collection of the symbols in the book (corruption and insincerity), when another symbol comes along their personalities are excercised, for the reader to see another aspect of the characters. When the temporary symbol fades away, we see how the characters resort back to their own corruption and insincere ways, following a path parallel to the weakness of other symbols in comparison to corruption and insincerity. The symbols and characters are obviously correlated with eachother, transforming and digressing with one another.  
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: McIntyre, Arielle at 3/9/2008
I beleive that the Grass contributes to the novel as a whole, but I don't think it's the most powerful element. What do you beleive Fitzgerald is trying to say about the world, humanity, or any larger theme with the grass?
RE: the GRASS
Posted by: McIntyre, Arielle at 3/9/2008
I don't understand how Gatsby's indifference to the grass shows his corruption. The reason he doesn't notice, and the reason Fitzgerald includes the contrast form when he was meticulous about appearance even down to the grass, to know when he didn't "see a thing", is to highlight how nervous Gatsby is. The reader has never seen him lose his cool like this before, he stands "as pale as death, his hands plunged like weights in his coat pockets, was standing in a puddle of water glraing tragically" into Nick's eyes. Fitzgerald doesn't present Gatzby like this to show his corruption, but to make the reader sympathize with him.
Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Resnick, Lindsay at 3/9/2008
Daisy represents the society of the 1920s.  She is not very moral, and she uses Gatsby because she knows he would do anything for her.  For example, when Daisy is driving the car that hit Myrtle, she allows Gatsby to take the blame for her. 
"'Was Daisy driving?' 'Yes, but of course I'll say I was'" (151).  Daisy doesn't argue.  She also doesn't seem perturbed in any way that she killed someone.  Not just anyone, but someone slightly close to her.  "She stood [the shock] pretty well." (150).  The only thing Daisy cares about is herself, but to make matters worse, the only thing Gatsby cares about is Daisy.
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Hudspeth, Tacy at 3/9/2008
I agree with Lindsay.  Throughout the novel, Daisy represents the culture and lifestyle of the people in the 1920s.  Her superficial views of what life should be like (the perfect marraige, children, and parties) allow the reader to connect with not only her character but the other characters in the book as well.  The "roaring twenties" were a time full of fun and good spirits but also of drinking and scandal which is demonstrated throughout The Great Gatsby by all of the characters.  Daisy's characteristics help to demonstrate the superficiality of society during that time and their reliance on wealth and status to fit in.
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: inwood, caitlin at 3/9/2008
Daisy is a crucial character in the novel because she is so contradictory, in the end I ended up hating her for her selfishness and ignorance.  It is true, she fits the status quo for how a typical millionare wife would act.  Her phoniness (yes I'm referring to Holden) is extremely evident when one moment she is "a low vulgar girl" to an obnoxious motherly tone that is clearly put on for the sake of her image. "Bles-sed pre-cious," she crooned, holding out her arms, come to your own mother that loves you"(123).  This quote makes me wonder why she feels the need to state aloud that she loves her own daughter and the answer is because Daisy is a hyprocite and she is corrupted in her view morals.
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Ide, Gabby at 3/9/2008
Daisy has been corrupted by the superficiality of the time through all the money she and Tom possess.  All she cares about is the way she looks to others and how she comes across.  She lives life for the face value and runs from conflict.  She led Gatsby on because she loved the way he loved her and it made her feel special and new for a bit, but then she grew tired of the conflict it was causing and ran away from it.  When she killed Myrtle she just kept on moving and never stopped the car.  If she had stopped she would have had to confront the fact that she just killed her husband's mistress and that would have caused conflict.  Daisy represents all that was superficial and fake about the twenty's.
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Saffer, Anna at 3/9/2008
I think you guys are giving daisy too much credit.  You are forgetting that tom also only cared for how he looked to the public as well as gatsby.  All of them together represent the society.  There is myrtle, who is obviously not well off, but tries to act like she is.  There is the liar, Gatsby, who seems too be all good, when reality it isn't.  Then the man with a mistress, who has the picture perfect life, but just can't get enough.  Then there is Daisy, who would rather live a fool than think of the real world.  All these different people are what create the society of the "jazz age"
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Richardson, Brittany at 3/9/2008
I agree with Anna about Daisy's character. Tom, Daisy, and Gatsby represents the society of that time period. This is supposed to take place in the jazz age. Where women are a little looser with there morals. The time period where everybody was lving the good life. They were drinking and partying everybody having a good time. You see that constantly throughout the book with these characters.
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Kao, Kathryn at 3/9/2008

I agree with Lindsay that Daisy does represent some women during the 1920's, but I feel that Jordan Baker represents the "new women" of the 1920's. Unlike Daisy, Jordan represents the break through of a new era in which women have a larger sphere of influence. She is a competitive golfer and has frequent flings with men such as her short relationship with Nick. Jordan is very cynical, showing her distrust to the public, while Daisy controls her emotions and knowledge of her husband's infidelity. Jordan is also very self-centered stating that even though she is a reckless driver, everybody else should be careful so that no accidents will occur. In the end Jordan tells Nick: "I don't give a damn about you now but it was a new experience for me and I felt a little dizzy for a while" (186). Her vulgar language contradicts the usual, formal, and polite way women talked before the 20's.

RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Harney, Casey at 3/9/2008

so I just typed a super long comment on this one and  then my computer "timed out"...whatever that means.

But what I had originally stated was that I did feel Daisy represented the extreme characteristics of the era but I also felt that many of the characters could fall under this category. Considering that materialism is a reoccurring theme of the society in which they live none of them live realistic lives. They all live in a social bubble where they purposely are catty, shallow, and extremely naive. Many of the characters live "multiple lives" and the route they are taking is completely impractical. Family is an element of unimportance and it shows.

RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Harney, Meredith at 3/9/2008

It is true that Jordan posesses a more confrontational manner than Daisy but I don't think that she is all that different from Daisy. She may be more openly cynical but deep down I think Jordan possesses the qualities that the women of this era were supposed to have. She still follows the "acceptable" protocol for a women. To address your point about Daisy, I don't agree that she controls her emotions very well. Daisy may seem flighty, but she's smart and the comments she makes reveal that she knows about her husbands affair.

RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Cotney, Grayson at 3/9/2008
I also agree that Jordan is one of the "new women".  Unlike Daisy and some other women, Jordan stands up for want she wants.  She doesn't back down to men nearly as often as Daisy.  She gets what she wants using her brains and by being unscrupulous.  She lies, cheats, and uses foul language.  She's definitely not a proper lady according to the old standards.
RE: Daisy Buchanan
Posted by: Fox, Natalie at 3/12/2008
I see how Jordan Baker can represnt the break through "new woman" in certain aspects (drinking, being loose, lacking proper manners...) but she still has many similiar qualities with Daisy. Jordan is clearly superficial and it's important for her to know the right stuff about the right people, go to the right parties, etc. I don't necessarily think of the "new woman" as one who is nosey and overtly concerned with her image. The new woman is supposed to be proud to do as she pleases, to be free, not having to conform to anything. Jordan conforms incessantly and when her and Nick are breaking up she mentions being engaged to another man...already! She still conforms, needing to be with a man and be high up in society.
Nick's Conclusion
Posted by: Saffer, Anna at 3/9/2008
The final words of this book are "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past," meaning, to me, that we continaully return to our past because we cannot forget it.  Other possible meanings are that we try hard to get to someplace, but we will loose ourselves, and keep be pushed back.  This is an important theme, but if you read at the beginnning Fitzgerald said, "I wish I'd never relaxed or looked back- but said a tthe end of The Great Gatsby: 'I've found my line- from nowon this comes first.  This is my immediate duty- without this I am nothing.' "  I find it very interesting that Gatsby would want to change his conclusion to that of self- discoverey.  By sayig this I think Fitzgerald is telling readers that tere are two very important themes that would appropraite to share at the end.  On is that our purpose is to find one's self, the other is that we will always be pushed into our past. 
RE: Nick's Conclusion
Posted by: pope, brittany at 3/9/2008
Another instance of the message of keeping the past in the past is the fact that Gatsby's dream of Daisy consumed him. but Gatsby's dream "is already behind him." Gatsby failed to move on with his life because i kept thinking about the past he and Daisy shared, not realizing that the dream was already lived, and is over. His thought consumed him so that his future "year by year receded."
Decay Over Time
Posted by: quinn, kristen at 3/9/2008

The ultimate theme in the Great Gatsby is the inevitable passing of time and the eventual decay of the American dream.

The novel highlights the disintegration of the American dream. It is now in an era of unprecedented prosperity and material excess resulting in decayed morals and values. Life is plagued by greed, luxury and empty pleasures. The sudden rise of the stock market and new national wealth led to an unmatched materialism in the nation.

 

 

The American Dream promotes a person from any background to make a fortune and achieve their desires, but we see in reality and the strict division between East and West Egg that this is not true. The old rich scorn the new rich for their lavish and panache ways.

 

 

The Great Gatsby exposes the incessant seeking of this dream in a time when it has clearly decayed to nothing more than an empty book cover. In parallel, Gatsby longs to recreate his love with Daisy, but fails. In his first reunion with Daisy he knocks Nick’s clock over symbolizing his clumsiness in attempting to stop time and reestablish their past love. Gatsby floats in his pool, even with autumn entering. This illustrates his inability to perceive the passing of time; he is constantly trying to restore the past.

 

 

The American dream has been reversed. Gatsby lives in West Egg and longs for Daisy in the East, a direct contrast with the traditional American frontier direction.

RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Harney, Casey at 3/9/2008
I agree with Kristen. Gatsby's constant flashbacks, lies, and overall longing to be with Daisy creates the  theme in which he holds on to the past. It is almost as if Gatsby's mind is glazed over. He obviously has selective hearing and vision  if could not tell that Daisy is clearly married with a child. Most people would see  Tom, Daisy, and her daughter and think "Oh she's taken." But because of Gatsby's vivid memories of Daisy and how she told him she would wait for when he came back, Gatsby can not come to terms with the current situation. He is rejecting reality and in turn does not see that time has passed, things have changed, and  that he can no longer recreate what he once had.
RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Lyons, Kristy at 3/9/2008
Instead of applying the idea of decay over time to the entirety of the novel, I'll apply it directly to Gatsby. In the first chapter, there was a quote we discussed that said "...it is what preyed on Gatsby, what foul dust floated in the wake of his dreams that temporarily closed out my interest in the abortive sorrows and short-winded elations of men." The readers experienced the decay of Gatsby from the moment we were introduced. The "foul dust" that "floated in the wake of his dreams" is merely his false hopes with which became his life and his reality. By it being "foul dust", it conveys the idea of how his aspirations had become his downfall, and detrimental to himself. We watch Gatsby fade away as the reality of his life becomes intertwined with what he wishes would happen.
RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Colcord, Carrie at 3/9/2008

Gatsby chased and pursued Daisy for years, expecting things to be the same. Yet when he finally found her, his dreams were crushed, creating the "foul dust floating in the wake of his dreams". He refused to believe that the love that they once had would "decay over time". I really like what Kristy says about experiencing Gatsby's decay from the moment we meet him. I became less and less interested in him as we read the book because all of his secrets were revealed. He decayed as the novel progressed along with his dreams.

RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: pope, brittany at 3/9/2008
I disagree the american dream is not about obsesive, bordering on stalker like love, or becomeing a part of an old rich snobby society, but to become wealthy by hard work and then live a prosperous life. The american dream is empiatmized by Gatsby who got to where he was by being a bootlegger. However Gatsby was not happy because he did not have a Daisy. Gatsby represents someone who always wants more. It is not the dream that is bad, but the people who are never satisfied.
RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Harney, Meredith at 3/9/2008

Fitzgerald does a good job of expressing this message through the characters in the novel. I don't think that Gatsby represents someone who always wants more, I think its more what like Kristen said, that the ultimately the American Dream is false.  The American people during this era invested their money carelessly and lived in false prosperity pretending to live better lives than they actually did- as demonstrated through Myrtle. Though I do like the irony you mentioned in Gatsby's achievement of the american dream, I think that Fitzgerald is addressing more the emptiness and unhappiness of those who have money and those who don't- he uses the valley of ashes for this purpose.

RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: pope, brittany at 3/9/2008
I do agree that the american dream as people took it was false. The frivolousness of that times society is false, however the American dream is not to blame. The pure dumb actions that people do to achieve it is to blame, not the idea of having a great life. It is when the American Dream is taken to an extreme and people are dumb with thier money that people crumble. So i wouldnt say that the American Dream is false, just the spin that society placed on it.
RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Cotney, Grayson at 3/9/2008

I don't believe that this is about the decay of the American Dream.  The American Dream is all about people making a fortune and achieving their desires.  The East and West Eggers have all ready done that.  Now they're just having fun and doing what ever they feel like doing.  I think that the decay of moral values would be more appropriate than the decay of the American Dream.

RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Myers, Cameron at 3/9/2008
But the problem with the American dream is that people will either spend their entire lives chasing it and it will consume them as people, or they will achieve it and realize that happiness cannot be found in the form of material possessions. Richard Corey was a perfect example of the later situations. I think that the American dream is proof of the decay of American morality and shows the pettiness of what many people value most.
RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Maxwell, Kevin at 3/9/2008

The disintegration of the morals associated with the American Dream does nothing but change the American Dream.  The true "American Dream" has always been associated with an honest, typically hard-working attainment of wealth.  But, in The Great Gatsby we see the superficiality of all of these people who have supposedly achieved this dream.  The book most certainly shows a change in the attitudes of these people, as they go from achieving the dream to being obsessed with out-doing everyone else who has gained wealth as well.

RE: Decay Over Time
Posted by: Bickwit, Kyle at 3/9/2008
I do agree with kristen, however I also agree with Kristy.  It seems as if the superficiality and class division applies to all of the characters, not just Gatsby, however the Grass symbol and the House better provide more specific themes and motifs than the decay over time.  However I do agree that the decay over time did provide an important theme and how the strife for the American Dream is sometimes covered by the falseness of those who are striving for individual prosperity instead of prosperity that is communal.
Tom and Gatsby
Posted by: Miles, Melissa at 3/9/2008

Both Tom and Gatsby want to recover a part of their past.  For Tom, it was his glorious football days; Nick notes "...I felt that Tom would drift on forever seeking a little wistfully for the dramatic turbulence of some irrecoverable football game" (10).  And Gatsby yearns to have Daisy for his own and to have the relationship they once had. 

Both Tom and Gatsby are involved with women who are married.  Daisy loves both Tom and Gatsby for their status in society and their materialistic possessions. 

RE: Tom and Gatsby
Posted by: Richardson, Brittany at 3/9/2008

I dont see how tom and gatsby being involved with women who are married helps make this an important symbol. I do think though that Tom and Gatsby represents to different kinds of people. But i dont see how there relationship with daisy is an important symbol. Yes there relationship is an important attribute to the novel but I dont think it is very important. I think the meaning behind each characters are very important.

RE: Tom and Gatsby
Posted by: Guffey, Lauren at 3/9/2008
  Both Tom and Gatsby represent all the corruption and decay of morals, characteristic of the 20s.  I think the cjaracters in the novel are the most significant thematic element beacause while the symbolic imagery adds a lot to the novel and provides clarification, the relationships among the characters is where all the meaning lies.  Nick who frequently takes on the voice of Fitzgerald himself allows for Fitzgerald's opinions about the state of society to shine through.  I think it it is through the characters that we get a real sense of Fitzgerald's point and purpose for writing this novel.  So, I would broaden the topic to all of the characters and then I would support this as most significant.
Posted by: Bitters, Ryan at 3/9/2008

RE: Tom and Gatsby
Posted by: Bitters, Ryan at 3/9/2008
I disagree, I think that the comparisons between Tom and Gatsby are of major significance to the overall idea of the American dream and to the novel itself.  Both characters are striving to live in their past, they both peaked in life way too early and now they're attempting to reclaim their former glory.  Tom does every thing he can think of to live in the glory of his football days, while Gatsby has done even more to reclaim his crowing moment in life so far, being with Daisy.  If you also notice, they both go about this the same way.  Granted Tom is married and Gatsby is not, they both are getting involved with married women, and is the adulterer really all that much different than the one that tempts?  They also seem to project a superiority to others when trying to impress.  We notice this with Tom right away when he says to Nick, "now don't think that my opinion on these matters is final, just because I'm stronger and more of a man than you are."  And with Gatsby's signature use of  "old sport", a term that should seemingly be directed to a child.  Its obvious that their differences define the characters, Gatsby the hero that takes the fall and Tom the villain that rats him out.  I believe the comparisons of these characters are set up to show the fine line between good and evil, right and wrong and how it can easily be overstepped.  That is one of the most important concepts of the Great Gatsby.
RE: Tom and Gatsby
Posted by: McIntyre, Arielle at 3/9/2008
It shows amidst all of the sadness and the superficiality, that there is something simple, true, and not reliant on wealth, that brings happiness. Tom and Gatsby are true friends. Fitzgerald wants to show that friendships like this, not wealth (the chasing of the American dream in vain) bring happiness.
The American Dream
Posted by: McIntyre, Arielle at 3/9/2008
The Great Gatsby is a comentary on America in the 1920's, and especially the "American Dream" Every important element mentioned so far supports this larger theme. Daisy is a symbol of the American Dream, I got this impression during Cahpter 8, Gatsby comitted his life to getting Daisy like the "following of a grail." She lives a luxurious, rich lifestyle, attending lavish parties and afterwards, "drowsing asleep at dawn with the beads and chiffon of an evening dress". Her characterization includes allusions to money, for example, she gleamed like "silver", her voice was "full of money". And she hovers "safe and proud above the hot struggles of the poor", Including young Gatsby. He started out as a "clam-digger and a salmon-fisher" or an any work that would bring him "food and bed", and with "[extravigant]" ambitions, luck, and a smile of "eternal reassurance", he became the rich and notorious "Gatsby". But at the end of all of this work, the chasing of Daisy (the American Dream), his beautiful posessions sit collecting dust in a house that has lost it's romance, all of his hard work to win his prize are in vain, the love of his life leads him to his untimely death, and when it is all over "Nobody came." To pay their respects. Fitzgerald uses the backround of the 1920's, the superficiality, the moral corruption, the escapism, the constant searching for sources of fun, of life, in drink, new products, new cars, lavish parties, and social scenes to expose the gilded American Dream.
RE: The American Dream
Posted by: Hackler, Leslie at 3/10/2008
(absent, excused) I think that Fitzgerald is also showing how the American Dream can never really truly make you happy. Gatsby has all of this money and wealth and although he appears to have everything he could possibly want, what he really wants is Daisy. The end of the novel also portrays this beacuse only three people come to his funeral. Daisy doesn't even react. So all of his efforts to impress her and live the "American Dream" were in vain because he is never happy. As they say money can not buy happiness.